56 | Matt Barker on AI-Enhanced Copywriting and Content Strategy

Matt Barker is a copywriter and content strategist helping founders and CEOs write fast, engaging LinkedIn content — and he's also an advisor at Magic Post, an AI-powered LinkedIn writing tool. In this episode, Matt shares how he built a million-dollar business from his laptop, why AI won't replace good strategy, and how creators can still stand out in a world of AI-generated sameness. 

He also breaks down the frameworks and prompts he uses to create high-performing posts in half the time, and offers his take on where solopreneurs should start today.

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Transcript

Audrey Chia: 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the AI Marketers Playbook, where we cover actionable frameworks to help you leverage AI and marketing strategies in your business. I'm Audrey Chair, your host, and today I have with me Matt Barker, someone I've been looking forward to speak with. Now, Matt is a copywriter and content strategist who teaches founders and CEOs how to write. Fast, easy and fun. LinkedIn post. He also plays a strategic advisory role at Magic Post, an AI powered LinkedIn content creation and management tool that has recently raised quite a big sum of money to evaluation of 2.2 million. Now beyond advising. Matt is also known for experimenting with AI to systematize writing techniques, including building custom gpt that replicates his proven hook styles and framework for LinkedIn. Matt, I am very excited to chat with you today. Um, welcome to the show.

Matt Barker: 0:50

Thank you. Thanks for having me on. It's nice to meet you finally.

Audrey Chia: 0:53

It's nice to meet you finally. And I think it's really exciting because we are both copywriters and we both love content strategy and ai. But for listeners who may or may not know you, could you tell us more about your journey, how you stumbled into the world of LinkedIn, how you made it your thing, and how you got started with AI on this journey?

Matt Barker: 1:11

Yeah, sure. So, um, I, I started posting on LinkedIn. About four years ago now, so January, 2022. Uh, the reason I started posting was it kind of coincided with me starting my copywriting business. Um, I kind of, I kind of fell into copywriting, to be honest with you. I, I spent. I spent like 10, 10 years in, in marketing just in nine to five. Um, so a, a town where I grew up in, in England. I worked at a, uh, horticultural e-commerce company, uh, for about eight years. Uh, and then moved to London, started working in B2B, uh, for another two years. Um, so. Within that space of time worked, you know, 10, 15 different jobs within marketing. So marketing was always my kind of core skill. Um, and then met my, met my, met my now wife. Um, and then after, you know, COVID and all that kind of stuff happened. Um, we decided to move from, uh, London to Cyprus. Um, so a bit of a change of environment and, um, around that time when we moved was when I decided to, uh, start my own thing, which was copywriting. I always loved writing. When I was younger, I was always the guy at school, like, uh, in English class writing the, like creative stories for like alternative beginnings to, to books and things like that. So. That was always something I loved. So it was kind of combining, uh, my marketing experience, which I've had, I'd, I'd had like a decade of, um, and, um, my love for, for writing, which is, for me, it's my preferred kind of communication. I'm, I'm better at writing than I am, uh, speaking.

Audrey Chia: 2:47

Awesome. And I think it's very interesting, right? Because you came from that marketing slash copy background and when AI came along, how did you feel? Because for me, my client actually sent me a link to chat GPT and he said, Audrey, you are going to be replaced. So that was my first encounter. Wow. Ai. Yes, I actually got that text and still have it now. What was your first encounter with chat GPT and how did you feel about it?

Matt Barker: 3:10

Yeah, I definitely didn't get any messages like you did.

Audrey Chia: 3:13

Lucky you. But

Matt Barker: 3:13

uh, yeah. Yeah. No, that must have been pretty scary. Sorry you had to get that. Um, yeah, it, it was pretty weird'cause you know, all the chat was, it felt like the, the chat immediately was, you know, what, what jobs is this gonna replace? Um, and everything you'd see, you know, there's a lot of content come going around, um, and everything you'd see, you know, writing would be right at the top in, in one of those kind of jobs that would be replaced. So it was definitely pretty scary. Um, I think for me, the. The thing that gave me confidence was the fact that I, I'd already been established on, you know, I'd, I'd established my audience online. I'd already, you know, built up some authority. I'd already been posting for like, very consistently and built an audience of, you know, I think probably about 40, 50,000 on, on LinkedIn, and then a few thousand on Twitter. Um, so I wasn't like massively over-concerned, but obviously, um, yeah, it was pretty scary to just kind of see like this tool that anyone could, you know, essentially access for$20 a month or, or around that, um, and get it to write you things. But obviously as it, as soon as it came out, everyone was testing things and, and trying it out and, and writing different things with it, and it soon, very soon came to light that youi it, it. It was either really bad at writing or you had to be an an incredibly good, an incredibly skilled prompter, prompt engineer, whatever you wanna call it. To actually get the response, the, the level of quality of writing that you want out of it. So even a amongst that, and you know, it's been sort of two or three years since, it's since ChatGPT specifically has been around now, and, and, um, yeah, I think it's, it's become quite clear to me anyway, that yeah, the strategy around writing and content and copy and all of that has just become even more important because that's the, that's the side that you just, you really still struggle to get outta ChatGPT. And if you, if you have the strategy mind on you when it comes to writing and content, then Chate is just amazing for that.'cause you can just in input all of your knowledge and it can help just bring out such a higher quality of, uh, of output.

Audrey Chia: 5:18

Definitely. I actually liked what you said about strategy and it's very interesting that we are having this conversation because typically when you chat with new clients, right, most of them think content is just words. They think copy is just writing. They don't understand that there is so much that goes behind it. The psychology of persuasion using specific tactics, understanding the audience insights, right? So maybe you can tell us more like how do you think strategy methods when it comes to using AI tools? Because most people would just ask chat GPT to write a piece of content, um, without that much thought.

Matt Barker: 5:50

Yeah. So, you know, the, the strategy behind specifically copywriting and writing, um, I'll give you an example so you know, say. Example, A, a person logs into ChatGPT and they do what you just said. They have no idea about the strategy behind copy. You know, they don't, they just want words that they can post on LinkedIn. Um, so they go, they log into ChatGPT and they type in, write me a LinkedIn post about X topic. ChatGPt then gives them a, a, a post. Now it is actually, you know, to a, a, a decent level where you can get quite a good sort of mobile optimized style LinkedIn posts, you know, whether it's chat vt, magic post, or any other tool that you're using. Um, um. But your ChaChatGPTr whatever tool you're using is, or specific specifically ChatGPT is, is gonna write what it thinks you want. And if you haven't given it much information, if you've just given it eight or 10 words, write me a LinkedIn post. That's just what it's gonna do. That's, you know, if you said that to a human, they would just. Write it and you, you wouldn't know what kind of level of quality is, is gonna come out of it. So then if you take the, you know, example, B, this person knows, uh, you know, the pain points of their audience. They know exactly who they're targeting, who they're trying to speak to, who. They know the different types of content. So, you know, for example, broader content, which is going to appeal to a broader audience, or, uh, a more specific type of content, which is gonna be more, you know, conversion orientated. Um, if someone has all of that strategic knowledge and, and understands, you know, how, uh, not just. Not just how a piece of content needs to be written at a, you know, a micro level, but how it impacts the macro. Um, so there's that in play. So you can, you know, if you are, if you're very good at prompting and you, and you can, you have all that strategic, that strategy in your brain. You can insert that into whatever tool you're using to help AI create a better post. But you can also. If you have the actual understanding of copywriting itself and you know, how, how copy should be structured. So for example, you know, a, a total beginner or someone who knows nothing about copywriting won't understand that you need that. You know, like for example, the problem agitates solution framework, that's very common framework in the copywriting world. And the idea behind that is that you start your whatever piece of writing you, you, you're writing with a problem that your target audience experiences like a pain point. So they can resonate with that pain point. And then you agitate it, you make that problem feel a bit more real, show them that you understand their problem, and then you introduce a solution. So whether that's your product, whether it's, you know, one a, a solution that you just found in your day-to-day life or day-to-day work. Um, so these sorts of things, understanding frameworks and structures of copy enabled you to get such a more impactful and more effective piece of writing. Um, purely because you know what order these words need to go in. So if you don't have that, that understanding, then you're not gonna be able to say, this is good or this is bad.

Audrey Chia: 8:52

Yeah, definitely. I think one mistake that most people make is they put out content for the sake of it, right? So even when you read it, there isn't a clear takeaway. There isn't a clear problem you're trying to solve. And they think that just because I'm posting something means I'm visible, means people are gonna remember me. Um, but I like to ask, right? Sure, you can create AI generated content, but does it convert? And that's another question. And maybe Matt, what have you found AI is particularly good at And what is it not that great at at this point in time?

Matt Barker: 9:21

Yeah. From, uh, I, I mean, I think it can completely vary depending on how skilled you are at using the tool, you know, but I've, I've worked with, um, a uh, you know, CEOs of, you know, like seven, eight figure companies. And, and one of the things that I definitely learned from, from them, and specifically someone who was the CEO of a, of an outbound marketing, uh, agency was that, you know, a tool is just a tool. It's the person behind the tool that really matters and the strategy that goes behind it. So, um. You know what it's good at and what it's bad at. I think it's com it, it's actually what's the person good at and what's the person bad at? I think that's the more important question. Um,'cause like we were just talking about, that's, the person is still directing what it gets out of the tool. So for me, what I find it it incredibly useful for is if I have these frameworks and, and structures for writing posts and writing copy that I know work. You know, because I've been writing posts on LinkedIn for four years now, posted thousands of pieces of, of writing. I have a decent understanding of, you know, what, what works and what doesn't. So if I can give, so what this is, what I like to do in, in, in Magic posts is I like to put my kind of, uh, best templates, best frameworks into magic posts, and then I'll give it a subject and it will write up a. A first draft of, of whatever topic or thing has happened to me that I want to talk about, and it will then give me a re, a really good first draft based in the structure that I want to write. So then I can just take that away, tweak, edit, do whatever I want to it. Um. And also, you know, and again, one of the best things about Magic Post and, and one of the great features that they've introduced since I've been advising them is, um, you can essentially tone match. So you can pull in your, your tone of voice from your historical data on LinkedIn, and those first drafts will be much closer to your actual tone and how you write, which is. It's pretty scary sometimes. So it's incredibly good at that. So I think the level of first drafts that you can get out, um, is, is, is incredible now. Um, and. Obviously the speed in which you can, you can create those now is just, is just unbelievable. So if you can, if you have these, you know, these frameworks and structures that you know have worked in the past, you've got the capabilities with a tool like Magic Post where you can pull in your, your tone of voice and essentially just match your tone of voice from all of these. Different pieces of content that you've written in the past, then you're, you are taking a huge, huge chunk of time, energy out of that whole creative process, which, you know, is, is a debate, um, whether it's that, that process should be a long and painful one, or a quick and easy one. Um. Just saves so much time and so much energy if you are, you know, wanting to put daily content out. So it's, it's incredible for that, you know, going from idea to first draft, it just, it's just made it instant essentially. Um, that's something it's, it's amazing at, um, I think something that's bad at still is, um, sometimes I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll feed it something. And I want it to come back in a, in a kind of conversational way, in like a human way. But it, it just, you read it and it, it is you, you ju it's just not hu ai

Audrey Chia: 12:32

Yeah,

Matt Barker: 12:32

it's, it's, it's ju it's just still to ai. And I, and I'm not sure, I'm not sure when that will go. I think it's just, it's just a, a, a human in intuition thing, you know?

Audrey Chia: 12:43

I think what I've noticed, chat, GPT, I think what everybody has noticed is that it likes the M dash, but for a writer you would notice same, similar patterns, um, sentence structure. So if you're not a trained copywriter, you probably would. You know, it sounds okay to you, but because you are a writer Right, you understand a sentence structure, so you would see that, Hmm, it's repeating three of the exact same sentence structure in one LinkedIn post. I think that is something I've observed. Have you seen that?

Matt Barker: 13:10

Yeah, I have. There's this there, there's one that has been going round the last couple of months on LinkedIn where it's like, um. They'll say, they'll, they'll mention a result that they just got, and then immediately after that they'll say, know something. Know something. Just this. And it's like it's everywhere. Every single post. And I'm like, ai, ai, ai.

Audrey Chia: 13:30

Yes. I think it's so

Matt Barker: 13:31

funny.

Audrey Chia: 13:32

The other one that I've noticed is it likes toing, but here's the thing. I've seen it like 1000 times.

Matt Barker: 13:37

Yeah. I think.

Audrey Chia: 13:39

Yeah, it's,

Matt Barker: 13:40

yeah, I think that's quite a common one anyway, to be honest. I think because a,'cause the AI is learning from obviously what everyone is posting on the internet and the, the stuff that performs well. It's kind of pulling these little things from it and you're like, Hmm, it's just coming up too much now.

Audrey Chia: 13:55

Yes. So I think the human aspect is still very important, right? Because you, although you wanna use AI in your process, I think just that tiny 20% of the human touch makes it sound so much more like you, um, helps you to remove all the, you know, identifiers so that. The post seems a lot more authentic. I think one interesting thing that I've realized is chat GT's memory feature is very great at understanding your tone of voice. So even now when I ask it to write a LinkedIn post it, I don't have to give it examples or reprompt it. It already knows how I sound. Um, and I think that's also incredible. Besides chat, GPT, what other AI tools, um, are you currently using, whether it's for copy or other, other, you know, endeavors.

Matt Barker: 14:38

Yeah, so I'm, I'm mainly just using two. Um, I'm a, I'm a pretty simple guy, to be fair. I don't, I don't overload myself with tools, but ChatGPT I use for a lot of, like, to be honest, just day-to-day things like, um, I'll ask questions just about things that I want to know the answer to, like, my washing machines broken, how do I fix it? Um, stuff like that. But then also business wise, I'll use it to, you know, ask questions around like. Uh, if I want to hit, you know, 500 k in revenue next year, um, you know, can you give me a kind of playbook to how that might look and what I need to do based on what I'm doing at the moment? So it's really helpful for being in that kind of like strategic partner, kind of advisor kind of thing. You can just ask your questions and get second opinions. Um, and then for everything content wise, I just use magic posts. So, um. The AI functionality of it is, is super useful because like I mentioned, that processor I mentioned earlier where it just takes you from, you know, idea to first draft is, is amazing. Um, uh, and then, you know, not even AI related, I just use it to schedule all my content, um, you know, look at all my analytics, pull ideas from what other people are posting, save templates, you know. I, I manage all of my content inside Magic Post. It's, it's super useful. So some days I don't even need to log into LinkedIn, which is, which is great.

Audrey Chia: 15:55

Just working like a machine. Tell us more about the magic post, right? Yeah. What made you decide to say yes to being an advisor, uh, for this tool?

Matt Barker: 16:04

So it was, so I think I, I first found the tool, um, so it's, it's September 25 as we're recording this, so I think it was. Maybe the start of 2024. So it was probably about two years ago now when I first found it and started and gave it a test run. Um, and the, the feeling that I got when I was using it was that feeling of like, I wish I had this when I first started. And I think that is so important for like a good product. Um, it was, it was, you know, simple. It was very much like, you know. You could use it in a way that was so beginner friendly, um, and it would just help you. There was just something about it that just gave me that feeling of like, I wish, like this. This is what I wish I had when I started.'cause when I first started posting on LinkedIn and writing content, I found it really difficult, um, because I was trying to. I was doing what everyone data did. I was writing posts and it was getting no engagement. Um, and it wasn't until I started, you know, kind of not imitating, but looking at what other other creators were doing and, and kind of using that as inspiration to write my own content to then, you know, get more engagement.'cause these proven structures and formats, um. Are, you know, they work for a reason. So if I can replicate those, but just put my ideas and my experiences into those, then in theory my content should perform better. So back then I had to do that all manually. I used to have to find the post click, save it, create swipe files, save it somewhere on your desktop and go through it all. But now with magic posts, I use that all just in, in one place. That is, that's what I wish I had when I first started. I wish I had that one place where I could have all my templates, all these posts, just a living swipe file, that I could just collect stuff, write quicker, you know, get help with, you know, with ai, kind of helping me write first drafts and just so I could go through tweak and schedule it and be done with it. Um, so that, that was the feeling that I got when I first started using it. It wasn't until, uh, uh, I think sort of January, Feb, uh, 2025 when Nyla, the nta, the, the founder reached out and he said, look, we're we, we'd be interested in, in having you on as a, an advisor? And, um, and we just started talking and, and, and found a, a kind of partnership that worked for the both of us. So, um, that's been, it's been awesome being a part of, part of it. Um, just. You know, build, helping build a tool, which I'm also using to help, you know, do my job easier. And, um, but also being able to understand, you know, what, what did Matt need when he was first starting? Um, and, and what do all the other Matts need, uh, now and what are they, you know,'cause I, I get so much feedback from my audience on LinkedIn, from my clients, from customers and people in my, in my private community and stuff like that. I know, I know all the problems that people are experiencing, so I can, I can use all that info to, you know, help bring them a better tool, the tool that I always wanted. So it's, it's a really nice kind of, um, situation to be in, to be able to, to help build that tool and obviously, um, you know, grow a, a really, um, a really smart, um, a really smart company.

Audrey Chia: 19:22

I think it's always great when a product is built based on real pain points, right? There are, you know, thousands of AI tools out there, and not every product has found its product market fit. And I think having worked with startups, you would also realize that the startups that succeed, they find a real pain point that is not really just a. Vitamin right by a painkiller and for many people LinkedIn is painful and therefore having a product that solves that real need is definitely something that everybody can look out for. I'm curious to also, you know, ponder about this thought because. If AI is advancing already so quickly and will continue to advance, plus there are so many amazing tools that can support, uh, anyone and help them to become a better writer. Where does that leave, you know, creators who want to build a LinkedIn profile, but yet now? In a place where there is huge competition from people who are producing super high quality content, how would someone stand out? What are some of your thoughts on that?

Matt Barker: 20:25

Yeah, so, so the, you know, like you say, so AI's come along, it's essentially created this scenario where information is. Just even more widely available. You know, if you think about someone's knowledge set, they're kind of, um, you know, the, the amount of information that they have in their brain and that they understand and the amount of knowledge that they have. Um. On X topic, like a topic or a niche, you know, that that is, the bar has now been raised to an extent where like the base level of knowledge and information that p an understanding of that knowledge on any topic is just the same. Like, I can go on to chat to BT for example now and write, you know, something like, tell me everything about, you know, uh. Uh, like commercial phishing, for example. Tell me everything about that that I need to know. It'll tell me everything that I need to know, and I can then potentially just ask it to and just say, can you create me 10 LinkedIn posts about commercial phishing? And then it will write me 10 com and it'll just spit out information. So we're now in a position where the majority of people can do that. So posts that are just. Information are, they're not dead. I'm not gonna say something. I never, I don't like saying something's dead. They're not dead. There's still a, there's still a need for information. You know, people follow people on LinkedIn for, you know, to keep up to date with what's going on in their, in their industries and things like that. So information is still very valuable, but it's just enabled the amount of people who can post the same level of information as, as before. Very intellectual or, or smart people or very experienced people could. So now. What we need to do to stand out is right from your specific lived experience. So what I mean by that is, you know, I've been in marketing for 10 years. I worked at one of, you know, these two companies. Within those companies. I was learning, you know, all sorts. Uh, there was different lessons that I learned, different mistakes that I made, um, different, uh, wins that I had throughout that time. Um, you know, different things that happened in my life throughout that period of time. These are all things that only I can write about, so no one else can write about that. So if you think, like when you go into chapter bt, everyone can write about that thing that I was just talking about. But no one can write about the exact thing that has happened in my life, my experiences, the lessons I've learned. So these are the things that you need to be talking about now to, to really stand out and the more. The more kind of like, actually it's like it's, it's like this, I kind of call it this like race to prove that you're human, like whoever can prove that they're human, the fastest wins kind of thing. So like whoever's the most human wins. And it's like a situation where, you know, if you're posting a picture or something, if it's like, it doesn't need to be this kind of polished. Superbly branded picture. That's lovely. Obviously for like a company or, or if you are, if that's this, this the perception that you want to create of yourself, then that's great. But for, you know, personal brands for like myself and for you where, you know, maybe you are like a one person business or even, even if you are just the CEO of a company that is not so buttoned up or in a, in a, in a niche where it's so, you know. Professional and corporate, you can just be yourself and you can post, you know, pictures which are not so polished. It's of your, of your day to day life. Uh, you know, screenshots of, you know, chats with your clients and happy customers and, and things like this, like day to day, raw, just very human things that are just normal, but. So uniquely you, that's the stuff which I just, I can't stress is, is enough importance on,

Audrey Chia: 24:08

I think as the world becomes more ai, we need to be like what you say increasingly human right. And that's the only way to stand out. So even for me, I think what could help is, although everyone has. Access to the same information and knowledge. It's also how you present it, how you engage your reader, whether it's through your personality, your tone, or using visuals, right? Um, these all help and even creating videos. And the reason why I think videos are also important. As much as they don't receive maybe the same reach as perhaps it carries out. I think it's important to build that sense of trust. Um, the more people hear you as a human and get to know you, they also feel connected in a certain way, and that could also help you to have the conversations that you want to have.

Matt Barker: 24:51

Yeah, absolutely. Especially, you know, in what I do where I, I, I essentially advise and coach, um, you know, CEOs, founders of, you know, companies to, to write, and I'm working one-to-one with those people. You know, we're on calls every couple of weeks. I'm, I'm recording myself, auditing their posts. You know, there's a fairly intimate relationship going on. So if there's any way for me to show, to prove to, you know, my audience, they're like. Hello. I'm human. I'm real. This is what I'm like, this is what it would be like to talk to me on a regular basis to work with me. Um, you know, that, that's the, that's the best way to do it through video. And like you say, it's, it's, it's not about the engagement that you get, it's about the impact that you have with like, just a very small portion of people who happen to see that video. If they can hear you speak, if they can see the way you talk and the kind of the things that you believe in, and. Just your kind of general vibe and to, and kind of like aura and things like that. Like it matters, you know, we, humans are, we have like this kind of chemical thing, you know, where we, we, we like certain people in for certain reasons and we dislike people for certain reasons. So I think especially with, with with consultant kind of, uh, you know, relationships, it's, it's important.

Audrey Chia: 26:03

To also ask you a bit about your journey. You know, building a business on LinkedIn. A lot of our listeners are either solo premiers or people who are in lean teams that are building businesses, and you have, you know, leveraged a platform to, its. Best of its potential. Tell us more about that journey. When did you really find that unlock? I know a lot of people have tried to leverage LinkedIn for lead generation, but might have failed in the process. And to really build a sustainable business on it takes a lot more than just posting content to daily. So what was the experience like for you and when did you find it unlock?

Matt Barker: 26:36

Hmm. So it took me, so like I said earlier, I started posting on LinkedIn in January, 2022. Um, the, the things that I was doing or posting about at the start was basically just, um, I was still learning about copywriting. So I was posting all the things that I was learning about copywriting. So I was just posting educational content around copywriting. Um. Back then, it was completely different to now, obviously because of the reasons that, that we've been discussing. And that content would perform a lot better then than it would now. Um, but the, the, the. I was, I was posting every day. It probably took me about six or seven months to actually get a proper client, so a retainer client. Um, the big unlock for me at the time was as a, as someone who had never, literally never run a business before in his life, um, was get retainer clients going from just a one-off project to retainer. So, you know, having someone who's paying you every month to do a service for them, that blow my, blew my mind at the time. I was like, what? This is how you do it. And you know, as soon as I understood that, then you know. You, you start talking you with by posting every day and, and showing that I'm competent in this, in this topic. Um, and then also using my LinkedIn posts as essentially kind of proof of, you know, this is what your product could look like. Essentially, um, people started reaching out to me. Um, I did a lot of work in, in, in sending connection requests and engaging with my ICP and, and, you know, uh, building my profile in a way that, you know, in my headline, spoke specifically to, you know, agency CEOs, which is who I was working with at the time, very specifically. Um, it was a, it was a trial and error process of talking to people, doing a bit of work with them and thinking, that's not really the kind of person I wanna work with. But then finding someone else and saying, ah, that is the person I wanna work with, so I'm gonna talk to them more and not talk to the other people. Um, so it was a big iteration process and that, you know, that's still happening to this day, four years later. Um, so the, the, the, the big. The big kind of unlock, to be honest, was it was just doing the same stuff ev like just over and over again. Just I've, I've been doing it for so long now. Um, other people have been doing it a lot longer than me, but posting on LinkedIn, it's, it's, um, it was, it's it the process of of just being consistent and, and posting and, and, and continually wanting to get better and learn how to do. To try different things and, and, and look, look different on in my posts. And, um, you know, just consistent, just con constantly trying to actually get better and learn new ways of doing things. I think there's a lot of people that I speak to and, um, you know, new clients and, and things like that, who they're, they're often just afraid to actually test new things because they, they, they try, they write a post in a certain way. Um, and they think that's just the way, that's the only way you do it. But there's all these different formats and structures and, and ways in which you can, different, different things to test. Like, you know, writing about different things about your life, about your business, about your expertise, different pain points, different topics. There's so many different things to write about tests, um, that. You know, we need to be more comfortable with kind of looking stupid and putting a post out that doesn't really work. Um, and then with the, with the chance that it could take off and,'cause it's something completely different to what you've already tried before. That's the risk you're taking. That's the whole point, right? You can't just keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect the same results. So. Um, that's something that I've always just been open to, is always to trying new things, testing new things. I think that's probably the marketer in me. I've always, I'm always looking at something as a test or there's no kind of right or wrong answer. You know, it's just trying, got some new things. So there's not been one kind of singular unlock, but there was a, there was definitely periods over that kind of first or second year where, um, there was a. A kind of acceleration of, of, of follower growth. Um, around the end of my first year, there was this particular type of content which I started posting, which was like very behind the scenes educational content. That just started doing really well for me. And then I started posting carousels in that format that just accelerated my growth rapidly. Um, and went from, you know, zero to a hundred K within eight 18 months. Um. Since then, it's been a lot slower because I've been doing different things with my business and, you know, talking to different target audiences at different periods of time and, you know, working my business out and figuring out what, what, what's gonna be best for me, you know, revenue wise and, and that sort of thing. So, um, but uh, yeah, it's just always being open to testing new things. I think that's something that I've, I've always been pretty good at, to be honest.

Audrey Chia: 31:21

Yeah, I think having a growth mindset is very important, right? A lot of people say that you need to get it right the first time. But actually, even when I work with startups and founders, right? I tell them, I don't know what is the best value proposition for you. And we nobody will know until we put it out in the market and let the market respond. Yeah. So sometimes you really have to just. Change the hairline and see what happens, right? Because what we think could be the best approach, may not be the best for the target audience. And having that strategic mind to even consider different angles, that is essential. Whereas if you were to just. Use AI to create content, you might take it at face value and, um, assume that that could be the best angle because shared GPT recommended it and sometimes it doesn't work out that great. So having that perspective is really important and maybe met for people who are. Solo premiers trying to build their business. Have you found a model that maximizes your time? Because you only have 24 hours a day. Everyone does, right? So how do you build something beyond yourself if you're kept by time?

Matt Barker: 32:25

Yeah, so I've, I've always been, I've always been very wary of burning out. Um, that's something that I just absolutely. Do not want to get to. Um, so I've always been very conscious of that and I've always been very aware of, you know, my who, who I am as a person, which, you know, as a solopreneur, you are the business. I am the business. If I'm not here, then the business is gone, um, at the moment, which, you know, should, needs to change that in, in the future. But for the moment it's okay. Um, so. Um, being very self-aware of, of, of that is, has always been very important for me. So, uh, throughout, even from start to to now, I've always capped the amount of people that I work with. Um, even from these first, you know, five clients, um, that I got. So for context, I was the ghost writer at first LinkedIn ghost writer. Um, I think my first. Retainer model was, I think 900 a month, 900 pounds a month, uh, writing five posts a week for, for, for the client. And we'd get on a call every week and I'd write the post for'em, get on a call, and et cetera, et cetera. Um, and I, I always capped out five people at a time because I just knew that if I took any more than five, I would just, for me, at that time, I would just get overrun. And I, I was, I was still figuring it out. So I gave myself that, that grace to. Uh, that, that space to figure it out and do things wrong and, and, and learn, you know, so I gave myself about six months to kind of do that. And in the process with ev, with, after those first few clients that I got. I then raised my prices more, and then I raised my prices again. So with every new, so with every client that dropped and every new one that came on, I had a new testimonial, so new proof that I was doing a job well, and then that enabled me to charge more because my audience was growing at at the time as well. I was getting more engagement. My personal brand was growing stronger and stronger. My testimonials were getting stronger and stronger. So I was just slowly just charging more and more and more. So then by the end of the first year, I was, I was able to charge, uh, I think 3000 a month for, for ghost writing. So, you know, tripled my pricing within the space essentially a year, which was amazing. So going into the second year of business was, I was really optimistic about all that. Um, so the ghost writing stuff was, was quite, um. You know, it's hard work. It's a lot to be able to, to have to write for someone else, to essentially be someone else. Um, but it was, you know, the systems I had down was pretty much, um, you know, it was, I would use Trello a lot, so I'd do all host everything in Trello. Um, uh, back then I would get on a call every sort of week or so with the client and ask them questions, record that, use that recording as, as con, uh, as, as ideas for my content. Um, uh, and then, you know, fast forward to now. I don't actually do any ghost writing. Uh, I just consult and advise for, for clients. And what that looks like now is, it's actually not that dissimilar to, to what it was before. It's been a pretty, um, consistent process. So, um, uh, we have a Trello board with the client, so with who, you know, the CEO of the company. Um, whoever's writing the post, whoever I'm working with one-to-one, we'll have a, our own private trip, Trello board. Um, there'll be a support column so they can ask any questions they want at any time. I'll come back to those in a, you know, asynchronously. I'll either write a response, I voice dictate a lot, so I'll come back with detailed responses, or I'll just whip open a loom and, and record some thoughts. They send me a couple of posts every week to review and I again, open up Loom record my. My thoughts and feedback and tweak and make changes and give it a full audit over loom. So again, no live element up until now. Um, and it's all done inside one platform. And then, and then every two weeks we'll get together for a call and just for an hour and discuss strategy, you know, see how things are going, check in on them, you know, anything we need to be doing more of, less of. Um. And that is the process that I've essentially refined. So because of, because of all that, those years and time, uh, and reps I put into writing posts for myself or for clients, I was then able to then do less essentially. Um, and, you know, have a much simpler process that now I, I essentially do all of my client work on Wednesdays and Thursdays, and then Monday, Tuesday, Friday gives me all this kind of space to, you know, write my content for the week. Um, you know, do other things. Um, and it just gives me space and more energy to be more, you know, helpful for my clients and my clients get really good results. So it, it, it shows.

Audrey Chia: 37:00

Wow. And it's a win-win, right? Because your client, I'm sure they also learn a lot from you coaching them in the process and for yourself, it gives you that flexibility and time. Is this something that you foresee yourself doing for a long term? Or are you, you know, putting on that solopreneurs head that, you know, families had? Is this something that you think you might want to scale into something else in the future? What does that entrepreneurial journey look like for you?

Matt Barker: 37:25

Yeah, I think, uh, I think the way I can see what I do going in the future is more, it's probably more, more similar to what, um, this kind of situation I'm in the partnership with, with Magic Post, where, you know, advising on a, uh, like either a, you know, a new startup or some sort of business, uh, uh, kind of company level and, and guiding their strategy around using LinkedIn or just general. Marketing to grow their business. Like for, for with magic posts, we've, we've looked at, you know, not just LinkedIn content, but also their email strategy, their email marketing, you know, product design and product building and features and all that kind of stuff. The ui, the ux, that's been important. That's been things that we've been, you know, having back and forth on, um, you know, sales strategy. So there's a whole host of things that just buy. Running my own business, um, doing all of these things and having to manage all these things myself. Um, and you know, my business in total from, since I've started it to now has generated around a million dollars, which is insane for, for what I, where I ever thought it was gonna get to. Um, and, um, I've got all of that, that, that knowledge and, and skillset that I can in pass on to companies who, who have a great product or a, a product which they want to improve. Um, and I have, you know, my audience, which I can tap into to help, you know, scale that business and all these learnings. So I think that's probably where I see myself going in, in a, in a consulting and advisory kind of sense. Um, working a bit more high level with, with companies that just want to grow their business in general. Um, not just specifically around writing or, or, or, or content, but that still being the core of what I'm teaching and, and, you know, the basis of, of how we grow that company. Um, but, uh, in terms of kind of scaling my personal brand, um, yes, there's that kind of consulting and advising side of it, but then there's also, you know, digital products. Um, I've released a, a course, uh, end of two at the end of 2023, which did about 80 k in in a four day weekend, which was pretty insane. Um, that's something that I'll be looking to replicate a a lot more in the future. Um, so, you know, and obviously with digital products, you build it once you sell it, and you don't have to deliver anything essentially. So that side of that side of the thing is a, is a, is a really scalable option, option for me, digital products and then also community. So I've been, I've been actually very quietly building, um, a community in private, which is called Copy Builders. Um, it's a community, yeah. Based in school for anyone who wants to. You know, enjoy writing on LinkedIn more, do it quicker, make it more easy for themselves, um, and help them to build an audience, you know, grow their reputation online. Um, been quietly building that and we're up to about 170 members now, which is, is really cool. So that's a, a very scalable model for me as well.'cause it enables me to help, you know, hundreds and hundreds of potentially thousands in the future, all in one place with, without much, without having to be in all different directions all at once.

Audrey Chia: 40:27

I think it's really interesting that you're diversifying, right, and it's co cool that your core skillset is the same, but behind that, there's so much more you can do. And I think as a copywriter marketer, a lot of people think that our skillsets are limited to producing content, getting something out, talking about the latest company update. But behind that, there is. All these, right? It's like playing chess, um, behind it since you're thinking about all the moves, but what someone sees is the move. Um, but behind that, I know you're thinking and tinkering with ideas and that's the amazing part. So maybe to wrap things up, Matt, perhaps you could give our audience three tips if they want to start building a business on LinkedIn. What are three essential things they should do today?

Matt Barker: 41:11

So the one of the most important, so one I would say is to. If you're starting a new business, I would actually say no. Don't worry too much about who your ICP is. That is, that's one of the questions I get the most is who, I dunno who my ICP is. I didn't know who my, or I thought I knew who my ICP is, uh, was when I first started. That was completely different to who my actual ICP was and who needed my service. So my first thing would be, don't worry about who your ICP is. Make a guess or a good assumption at who you think it is. Do, you know, post, do all the things you need to try and generate business. If it's not working, then look at the data and, and rethink and, and, and do something else. Um, two, uh, one of the things that I did not do at the start was, uh, offer my services for free. I know that's quite a, a bit of a contentious one for freelancers and solopreneurs. Um, a lot of people don't like the idea of doing work for free. Obviously no one likes the idea of doing work for free, but if you are, if you're trying to build a business and trying to build recognition and, you know, build a reputation and show proof that you can do something, um, I, if I could go back, I wish I would offer, I would've offered things, uh, to do. You know, ghost writing for people for free for a month and then get in in exchange for a testimonial. I think that would've accelerated my business a lot, a lot faster than it already did. Um, so that would be my, my second piece of advice for sure. And then three, uh, I would say be patient. Be very, very, very patient and just you, you so many people that I speak to, you know, younger people as well. Um, I'm 32 now, um, and I've spoken to, you know, 21 year olds, um, you know, even teenagers who are, are starting their own business and, you know, they're, they're already, they're already. Getting annoyed because, you know, they've been doing it a month and they haven't gone viral yet, or they're not hitting the targets that they want. And, you know, just, just be patient. Like if, if you're young, you've got so much time in your hands. Um, just be patient. Take things slowly. Don't over. It's no good to, you know, get in a position where you suddenly just blow up overnight and you, and you just can't handle it.'cause that, that sort of extreme, in my opinion is not, is, is not a good thing at all. I would much rather grow at a, a steady pace than just blow up overnight and then be going through these ups and downs. So I would just, I would say be very, very patient. Take things slowly, um, and, and trust yourself really.

Audrey Chia: 43:44

I think one thing that I could add to that is, um, from what you've shared, I love your growth mindset, um, and the idea that you don't always have to get it right the first time. It's always about testing. So whether it's through your content that you test, whether it's through your business model that you test, whether it's through, you know, finding out who's your ICP, right? All these required you to test, fill and then figure out. What's the best next step? And I think as an entrepreneur or someone who is even considering it, having this growth mindset would really help you in the process. Now, Matt, thank you so much for sharing your insights. Where can our listeners find you and who should reach out to you? So you

Matt Barker: 44:20

can find me on LinkedIn. If you just search Matt Barker, then you'll be looking for a headline that says, fast, easy, and fun, LinkedIn writing. Um, I work predominantly with, uh, CEOs, founders, any kind of leader. Um, who, uh, wants to write LinkedIn posts better, faster, easier, have more fun actually doing it. Um, so you can DM me, you can, uh, reach out to me, uh, on LinkedIn.

Audrey Chia: 44:46

Awesome, and don't forget to check out Magic Post. I think Matt has shared lots of great stuff about it, so be sure to check that out as well. I will pop the links in the comments section. Thank you folks for tuning in and don't forget to hit the bell for more actionable AI and marketing insights. We'll see you next week. Take care.