51 | Personal Branding that Converts with Thibault

I joined Thibault Garcia on the B2B Talk podcast to chat about my journey growing from 0 to 50K followers on LinkedIn and how content built with AI (yes, really) helped fuel that growth. We dug into my approach to copywriting, how I train custom GPTs to sound more human, and why memes, red carousels, and clear positioning make all the difference. 

Whether you’re a founder, marketer, or just figuring out LinkedIn, this episode is packed with real-life strategies you can use to grow your presence and get inbound leads, without sounding like everyone else.

Join my weekly Newsletter: https://lp.closewithcopy.co/welcome

Transcript

Thibault Garcia: 0:00

Hey Audrey. Hi everyone. Welcome guys. Onto the B2B Talk show number nine edition. We are today shooting out of Singapore. Last time we were in Bali, the time before I was in Hong Kong. It almost feels like I'm talking on a travel show. Uh, but Audrey jokes aside. Thank you, Audrey, for joining us today. Uh, for those of us, uh, and those tuning in today that don't know you, uh, even though you're kind of a rock star in the region, could you give us a quick intro about yourself, your background?

Audrey Chia: 0:24

Yeah. And thank you for having me on your travel show. Um, yes. I'm Audrey. I'm based in Singapore and I'm the founder of Clothes With Copy. So I run a hybrid human AI copywriting consultancy that specializes in building brands that convert. That is my sweet spot.

Thibault Garcia: 0:38

Nice, nice. It's funny, I was talking to a bunch of people yesterday at an event and I was like, personal brand is one of the biggest driving factor behind the growth of my business. And I really preach that a lot. Uh, that's pretty much what we're going to be talking a lot about today. Uh, I think maybe a bit of an opening question is, I was watching some of your content and, and you said that. Prior to starting this on LinkedIn, you had almost zero followers. So how did you go from that to being literally probably one of the top, you know, three people to follow in the region?

Audrey Chia: 1:04

Yeah, so when I first started, I didn't want to be on LinkedIn. In fact, contrary to popular belief, I am not on any other social platform. No way. Yeah, so I don't use TikTok. I'm not on Facebook. I don't use Instagram only for work purposes. That's so interesting. And LinkedIn was the mother of all social platforms. Um, can you imagine your bosses are there, your ex colleagues are there. Of course. It's really daunting. It took me six months to decide to post my very first post. Okay. And a whooping three weeks to craft my very first post and hit that button. So at that point in time, I had zero following. The people I was connected to were my ex colleagues, my ex bosses, right? So my first pose out there was, I would say, a very scary step for me to take. Yeah. But fast forward to today. I'm so glad I did because I grew from zero to 50 K followers in just about two years. Um, that's impressive. And, and rank one of the top creators in Singapore. And because of this, I have been getting lots of leads for my business. So powerful platform.

Thibault Garcia: 1:57

Yeah. No, I, I, I, I definitely agree. I, I always preach LinkedIn every other day and I say it's one of the most powerful platform out there when you're trying to grow your B2B business. Um, you mentioned being daunting and taking three weeks to, to craft your first post. Yes. I always tell people it's like, just post it. Right? It's like, but it feels so scary'cause oh, what is my ex-boss? And what, what, what are my ex colleagues going to think about this and all that stuff. Just post it, no one cares. And then if you are consistent enough, you're going to start kind of seeing that growth.

Audrey Chia: 2:23

Yes. I always like to say the first step is the hardest. Right? And after that zero to one step's, a good step is a lot easier, and once you get into the growth of things, it just becomes a part of your work stream. So that really helps in the process.

Thibault Garcia: 2:35

Yeah. Great. So you, you mentioned, uh, riding with ai and that's mostly, uh, what you do for your clients. Um, I do the same. I mean, for my own brand, we don't sell content as a, as a service. We used to, but it's, it's a bit of an operational mess for us at the moment. So we focus on what we are good at, which is lead generation. But on the content side of thing, very often when I talk to other business owners, they say, oh yeah, but if you write content with ai, it sounds like fraud. There's no authentic ct, you know, it's like. So what's your, what's your take on that? How do you. And I'm assuming it's probably a question where you need a whole hour to reply, but like in, in short, how would you advise people to write with AI without losing their soul and, and writing stuff that that's authentic and genuine?

Audrey Chia: 3:12

Yeah, that's a great question and it's a question that I get a lot from a lot of clients, right? The thing about AI is if you don't recognize what AI sounds like and you're just copy and pasting wholesale from chat GPT, you're gonna still get things like revolutionized. It's not this, it's that and 10 m dashes. In your post copy. Yeah. That is a red flag right there. Yes. So if people see AI content and they know it's AI generated, there is no trust, there is no authority, there is no conversion. Right? So the secret is actually in two things, being able to prompt, well give AI your voice. Your structure, your writing style, give it the right instructions and it will get you 80% of the way. But of course, the second part of things is adding that human touch. Yeah. So I never, ever copy everything that I see. I always add a frugal of my human touch. Right. And that helps me to tell stories, make it more emotional, and really bring my personality to life.

Thibault Garcia: 3:58

Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a great answer. And, and you, you say. Add your voice. How do you do that? Do you give AI like a PDF or posts you've wrote written in the past? Do you give it like your writing style? Like how does that look like? I mean, I know prompting is, is, does a lot of the work, but you also attach like PDF and use projects in cloud or like how do you currently

Audrey Chia: 4:16

Yeah, so I love. Using chat, GPT Mobile. Okay. And what I have is, oh, uh, custom, GPT mm-hmm. Where I can just speak to it on my phone and tell it exactly what I want to talk about so I can whip up my phone and say, today I had a conversation with table, we talked about X, Y, Z, right? Me post. And because it's trained on my past LinkedIn posts, it's trained on my context. The knowledge that I have, the way it's gonna craft my posts is gonna sound more genuine. It's also gonna pull things out that are specific to me. Mm. So my experience as a marketer, a copywriter, my voice, my warmth, because I'm giving it examples, but the right examples and the right instructions, it's gonna generate something that's a lot more, you know, human like compared to just a generic prompt.

Thibault Garcia: 4:55

For sure. I, I, I always tell my team,'cause we, I mean, first of all, I think businesses in the next, it's already happening, but in the next 3, 4, 5 years, there won't be any business that exists without using AI and automating processes and operations. So we rely heavily on, on AI for a lot of internal and external things for our clients at richly. Uh, but I always tell the team, he's like. The output will only be as good as your input. Input. Yeah. Right. So if you just sell it, write me a post for LinkedIn, it is gonna be bad. Right. So it's like really you have to make sure that you are prompting it with context rules, knowledge and all those things. Uh, I don't use so much LGP tt. Right? We use code a lot'cause we can attach all these PDF, but you could also do the same in custom GPTs. Uh, but yeah, definitely.

Audrey Chia: 5:31

Yeah. And I was so curious, right. Since you're at richly and you use AI as well, right? What is perhaps like one tip you have for using AI in maybe sales, for example?

Thibault Garcia: 5:39

Ooh, that's a great question. I mean, depends what part of sales, uh, but let's talk about one that I really like is research. So we have a really complex prompt, uh, and I usually use it before I speak with any companies. I just, it's, it's that good. You just have the company UIL and because it has the knowledge of what I want, it gives me everything about that company. So. The unique selling proposition, who is the potential ICP? And then it gives me strategy, idea of triggers and signals I could use and speak about with that person on the call that we would use for the lead generation campaign. Wow. So it's like, we'll say, Hey, you know, like for you, we'll probably look at this type of signals, this type of triggers. We could pull them like this and this and that. Have you also tried this type of offer? So it really does a lot of pre-research, uh, I mean. Like you said earlier, I never take that output and just like repeat it. Yes. Otherwise I'm gonna use this. I just look at it. Maybe like 70% of it is gonna be good. The rest, uh, I can scratch that off and I add on to that from my, my experience and background. And then, um, that's one of the way I use it for my cause. Uh, what would be another way? Yeah, I think that's one of, that's probably one of the, the main way I use, uh, in sales. Yeah.

Audrey Chia: 6:36

And it really actually removes a lot of that ground work, right? Yes. Things that you would spend hours doing, it gets you that base level that you can work off and then of course makes your team so much more productive.

Thibault Garcia: 6:45

Yeah, definitely. And a a bit off topic, I'm going back, uh, about, about you and your personal brand, uh, even though we're already talking about copy. Is when I saw you earlier, when we first met outside in the street, I said, oh, you're wearing red, which is a brand color. Uh, what got you to choose red? Like how, why did you choose red? Did you look at the brand color wheel? And I was like, this is what I want. Like,

Audrey Chia: 7:03

great question. And I think it's all about branding, right? Yeah. So my background, um. Started in advertising.

Thibault Garcia: 7:08

Yeah.

Audrey Chia: 7:09

And it was, when you're in advertising, you need to figure out what makes a brand stand out. Not just through how it sounds, but how it looks. So your brand colors, your brand font, your brand visuals or meta. So when I looked at LinkedIn as my platform, I had to figure out how would I stand out, you know, compared to all smart, the other LinkedIn profiles out there. Smart. And you would realize that very few people you know, use the color red. It's. A very bold color, very vibrant. Um, a little bit more on the attention grabbing side, but if used correctly, it can also signal energy. Um, it could also signal, you know, positivity, but you need to pair it, you know, with the right kind of content.

Thibault Garcia: 7:42

Yeah.

Audrey Chia: 7:42

So colors matter, and that's why I think a, being able to build your brand also means being able to. Have a look and feel that is really imprinted in the minds of your prospect so that when they meet you, they're like, ah, that is Audrey. And that's exactly what I'm going for.

Thibault Garcia: 7:55

Yeah, I'm trying to do the same thing with Richie, but it's, it's really hard. I mean, everything we do is purple. Uh, there's a lot of purple in, in all of our colors. There's the purple LED light and the studio around us. Uh, and I always tell the team is my, my, the way I look at it, and the reason why I think branding is so important is, I mean, brand awareness is great and it's very important, but. Even beyond that, I think being top of mind for people. Yes. And I think having that and having those brand guide guidelines clear and a way to be very recognizable helps you have that top of mind awareness. Maybe easier, right? So that's one thing we try to, to do a lot of.

Audrey Chia: 8:27

Yeah, you gotta think of it as leverage, right? Yeah. If you wanna build a brand, you need to have your branding, your look and view how you sound. All these needs to be super clear, and that's how you build a very powerful brand.

Thibault Garcia: 8:35

Yeah. And, and on, on that note, we talked, we were talking about, you know, your content color and, and everything. So every time I'm scrolling, lean in, I'm like, if I see a red carousel, I'm like, okay, that's Audrey. I know, I know already. Um, would you, but then I've also seen. I've, I've chatted with some other people and they say, oh, what we try to do now is we try to have different creatives color on our creatives.'cause then people have the feeling that they're always seeing the same thing. Like, what would you say to someone that, that says this? Because if they keep on seeing Red Carousel, they'll be like, oh yes, it's, it looks like the same content that she posted like three weeks ago. Something like that.

Audrey Chia: 9:04

So let me ask you, have you seen Apple Ads? S Mm. Right? Yeah. So I just am putting it out there, right? Mm-hmm. There is consistency in their brand. True being, that's true. No matter how it looks different, different campaigns have a different hate line, a slightly different mood board, but they always follow the same brand guide. Mm. Why? Because they also want to imprint themselves in the minds of their consumer. When you walk into an Apple store, you feel like, wow, it's so minimalist. So sharp, polished, it's clean, right? And they are not gonna move into something that's cluttered, messy, super colorful, because that's completely unlike them unless they have a specific campaign around it while still ending with a very sharp, clean end frame. Yeah, you would realize that their end frames are very clean, right? Still, um, following the brand guide. So that's what I would say. You can explore different treatments, but it has to be housed under a master brand if you really want to build that brand recognition and recall.

Thibault Garcia: 9:51

Yeah. No, that makes, that makes actually a lot of sense. That's a great way to, uh, to put it for sure. I'll keep that in mind and I'll probably tell that to someone the next time they ask me. Um, in your carousel, one thing that I see you do a lot that I don't see many other creators do is memes. I see you post a lot of memes and use memes. Images, um. Maybe you can tell us why and then what I'm a bit curious about,'cause I love memes. I, I personally, I use them a lot, but in my work life and on my work, social media, sometimes I'm a bit like afraid about using them.'cause I'm like, how are people going to perceive it? Uh, so what's your kind of take on, on those two questions?

Audrey Chia: 10:22

Yeah. So I use memes because a, they are a bit different from what you normally see on LinkedIn. Mm-hmm. Where you see a lot of work, um, you know. Related content. Yeah. So, uh, in my exag agency, BBH, we used to say, when the world z we Z. So if everyone's doing work related serious content, you stand, I should be doing something, something else. And that helps me to stand out. But secondly, it also resonates with my own personality and profile. If you see me, I'm not, uh, someone who's super serious. I like to take life a little bit more, you know, chill. Um, I enjoy life. I love laughing. I love having fun. So it's a complete match with my brand personality. With my personality, but if I were to work, uh, one of my clients is A CFO. Right? I would not recommend memes because why? For him? Yeah.

Thibault Garcia: 11:01

Because for his audience and his personal brand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't make sense, right?

Audrey Chia: 11:04

Because someone else might have to be, you know, uh, seen in a more professional light. Right? And his audience may not resonate with memes as much, so you have to be very aware who's that personality you're crafting content for.

Thibault Garcia: 11:14

Yeah. But that's, that's actually a very, very good point, which leads me to then. Don't you think that by using meme, if A CFO saw your content, you'll be like, oh, maybe Audrey won't be able to help me write content'cause she's doing it this way, which wouldn't match what I'm trying to. Uh, build as a personal brand.

Audrey Chia: 11:27

Yeah, so that's a great question, right? You're saying the impression of a carousel versus the value that I'm bringing? Yeah. So what I normally do is when I create a carousel that's fun, I pair it with very high value based content.

Thibault Garcia: 11:38

Mm. So

Audrey Chia: 11:38

you would see that the information that I share. I even add use cases, examples. Sometimes I add screenshots, case studies. So together with that fun element, I'm balancing it out with value. Mm-hmm. And to your point, I have had clients who have followed my content for seven to eight months. For example, a head of growth, a founder, right? You would think that they may not resonate with, you know, a fun type content, but they followed my content and after X number of months they reach out and say, Audrey, we are ready to work with you. That's great. How do we get started? Yeah. So that's the power of content, if you know how to balance it. For

Thibault Garcia: 12:07

sure.

Audrey Chia: 12:07

And if you're just putting out memes with. You know, not a lot of context, um, just to make a point, um, about, you know, being funny or using ai, but if you don't provide that value, right, for

Thibault Garcia: 12:15

sure,

Audrey Chia: 12:16

nobody's gonna come to you for your work. So you need to pair it with the right kind of education and knowledge based content.

Thibault Garcia: 12:21

No, that's, that's great. I definitely think that you can do well on LinkedIn if you don't provide some sort of value. Uh, but on, on your point regarding people coming back to you and being ready to work with you, I was telling A-A-C-E-O-I was on a call with last week. I told him. G. LinkedIn content is amazing, but the why a lot of people kinda are a bit like not so sure about getting started because they're like, oh yeah, but I posted for two months and I didn't see anything. It was like, yes, but I'll tell you something. And I told him that. I was like, I have people sometime on calls. They were like, Hey, I saw your video you did with this. Then I'm like, sorry, what video? And it's like, which one again? He's like, oh, that video's like, oh yeah, I start shaking. It's like, it was like eight months ago. Wow. You know, and now they come back to you. And that's, that's about that type of mind awareness we were just talking about is like, and the problem with nowadays marketing is people really want to be able to attribute any sort of revenue they get and they wanna be like, oh, because I posted seven times for the last two weeks, I'm supposed to have three calls. It doesn't even work like that. Yes. And, and I think on, on the flip, flip side of that, in terms of attribution, even if you do LinkedIn content, and even if you track all your traffic source and the UTM tracking all over the place. You might still have someone that sees you, says, oh my God, that's valuable content that she just shared. Let me Google her Google you go to your website and then reach out to you this way. And you think, where's that person coming from? Yes. You know, it's like, I don't understand. And it's like, oh yeah, actually saw your LinkedIn post. Right. So it's, uh, I think value content is the only thing that matters, giving as much value as possible. But marketing and, and, and marketers and people that have personal brands on LinkedIn really shouldn't chase this as like a. It's not a performance marketing channel and you won't be able to attribute revenue to it as easily as you probably think. Yeah.

Audrey Chia: 13:49

A lot of people, they want instant results, right? Yeah. They, want to see immediate ROI, but for organic content, that's not how it works. But the beauty of it is if you invest today, it will pay off. You know, and the results will compound for you. Mm. Whereas if you're doing paid ads, the moment you stop spending money, that's it, you stop getting leads, right? Yeah. Um, so if you're already doing paid ads or getting referrals, that is great, but you also want to then bolster it with another layer of organic content so that it gives you that moat that you can build for your company and gives you the ability to harvest that ROI in the longer term.

Thibault Garcia: 14:19

Mm, yeah. No, definitely. And in, in speaking of different acquisition channel. Do you, for your business, do you only get leads and clients through LinkedIn or you also. Run ads. You also do call outreach. Like have you tried any other channels?

Audrey Chia: 14:31

Yeah, and the beautiful thing about LinkedIn is I love inbound leads. Yeah. They're amazing when when you have content that attracts right. It's so much easier to have those conversations, to close the calls, to be able to work with clients that you like. Right. Which is why LinkedIn is so powerful for me because I'm a copywriter. I love content strategy. Proof is

Thibault Garcia: 14:47

in the pudding. So yeah. And if

Audrey Chia: 14:48

I can grow and really get inbound lead. This is what I can do for other businesses, but for my clients, I work with them on optimizing their landing pages, their ads, their email sequences. So yes, I can do all those things, but for myself and for my business, even just leveraging one powerful platform is enough for me That's amazing.

Thibault Garcia: 15:06

That's really cool. Nice. I think that's the dream for a lot of people.'cause you know, I mean, it, it, but again. It's probably the case because you've built such an amazing brand and you have such a good presence in the region and great engagement, uh, that you're able to get enough leads, you kind of fuel your business and your, your, your pipeline.

Audrey Chia: 15:22

Yeah. But I'm also sure that for Rich, you were mentioning LinkedIn is a key channel for you guys, right? Yeah. How has that been?

Thibault Garcia: 15:27

Well, I mean, it's, it's been, it's been amazing'cause I, but with content it's a bit interesting for me. In, in, before starting richly, I already had about like 12,000 followers from years of, of connecting with people and, and then writing a bit of content here and there and through my past corporate jobs. But the, the challenge I have is that a lot of these people were irrelevant to what I was trying to now sell. So when I started posting on Indian about richly and all that stuff, I got a lot of engagement at first, but not so much result. And then the engagement can die down.'cause those people, those ex-colleagues, those friends and all that, were like, yeah, okay. We get it. We see what you're doing. Cool. So the engagement died down. And, but then as I was starting to regrow my network with people that actually are my ICP, then the engagement went back up a little bit and I started driving, uh, driving business this way. Uh, so it's been a bit of a, it's been a bit of a, a good ride and I almost have 20,000 followers. Wow. So I'm excited. I'm trying to, uh, aspire to be, uh, someone like you and, and hit, you know, uh, more than 41 day. So let's see. Um, so that's on the, that's on the content side of thing, but I, I'm also a very big believer in outreach. I mean, that's everything we do at Richley. Yes. So I very often will have my main KPI every day is to message 20 people on LinkedIn. So I'll just look at my current connections and say, okay, who can I message who haven't iMessage already? Who could be a potential fit? And send them something just to get more conversation rolling. Just keeping a top funnel as big as possible.'cause then that's going to trick down into. Potential meetings and down the line potential deals.

Audrey Chia: 16:47

Yeah. And a follow up question, if I may ask. Right. I realize that most people are using LinkedIn about when they're sending out messages. They aren't that great. Edit, right? For sure. Um, and they're like whole pitching. Uh, that was a mistake I also made at the beginning of my journey. But when you are doing that outreach, what is that one thing people should know about doing outreach on LinkedIn?'cause it's such a specific platform for sure. And it's also a social platform.

Thibault Garcia: 17:06

Yeah. So exactly. You, you already answered your own question. It's, it's a social platform right? You really don't want to be doing this. Um, so there's two things. The first thing is I always tell people the only goal of lead gen is to drive conversations. People are like, yeah, but I want meetings. Like, yeah, great. You'll get meeting. But you'll never get meaning if you don't get a reply for someone in the first place. Yes. Right. So then everything you write should be catered towards getting a reply from that person. And in order to do that, you need to ask questions. So typically that's a lot of what we do at Richley for ourselves and for our clients. But on LinkedIn specifically, because we do a lot of call email as well. Yes. You want to keep it super short. It's, you only see this on, on, you know, your mobile phone. Yeah. The screen is not that big. It's short. So it's like if you write something that needs to be scrolled back and forth, you've lost them already. Yes. Two line, one question, something relevant and something of genuine interest. Right? So I'll give you an example of something we do and then I'll try to, uh, to go back to content with ai, uh, as a topic is, um. We go after funded startups. So we have lists that we scrape every other week for funded SaaS throughout the world. We choose specific countries and we reach out to these people. Everyone else is doing this. Yes, everyone is going after funded startups, right? So I'm like, how do we do this without signing too kinda salesy and, and, uh, and without putting people off. So what we typically do is we connect with them empty connection requests. And then two, three days after connecting, we ask them, Hey, congrats on recent funding. By the way, we have a lot of filters to make sure that they're a company that could be using outbound system and, and lead Jen and cold email.'cause not every SaaS would be a good fit. And they say, congrats on the funding. You're probably trying to grow a lot more now for the next funding round and everything. Are you going to be taking your go-to market strategies and lead gen in-house or you are looking to outsource this? Mm. And most people are like, no, no, we are actually doing this in-house. Great. Here I have a guide for you. No, we are actually looking to outsource this. Great. I would love to have a chat with you because it's such a casual question that people reply. Not everyone's gonna reply otherwise, you know, lead gen would be, uh, even better of a channel as what it is, but a lot more people that if you took the approach of like, we are this and we do this, and I saw that you fundraise, no one cares about that.

Audrey Chia: 18:59

Yeah. And I love that you are asking questions instead of. Pitching to them directly, right? Mm-hmm. And I think that's also the power of good copywriting. Um, a hundred percent. Being able to hook your audience in, get them engaged, and then get a response. I think that is always the first step in any kind of marketing or sales process.

Thibault Garcia: 19:13

Yep. And, and speaking of copywriting, I think you mentioned the, the double dash. Uh, it's as like something to avoid. It's so funny you mentioned this'cause like a couple days ago. Uh, ENO is the CEO of Lamb Lease, which is a huge company, uh, in France. Um, posted something. He talked about a great cold email and he said That was a great cold email. And I wrote a comment on it. I said to me, yeah, I agree. It's a great cold email, but anytime I see the double dash, which is a clear kind of pattern that AI has, when it writes, I just delete it.'cause I'm like, at least try and hide. Yes. And make an effort into the fact that you're using ai. It's fine to use ai. Everyone does. I do. Please do. But make an effort to make sure they are output is as good as possible. And that comment got like, so plus likes and I got like a bunch of, of thousands of impression and then we had a bit of a chat about it. It's like, oh, that's true, et cetera. But he also said something very good. It is like, it's, it's a bit sad because for people, some people used to actually use that double dash in their own way of writing. Yes. Before AI became the reason, you know why you see it everywhere, not it can't. Yeah. But, but on that, what's the one thing apart maybe from that double dash when you scroll content on LinkedIn? That you see and you're like, oh, that's definitely ai. Like I can tell straight away.

Audrey Chia: 20:14

Yeah, and great question. I use AI so much that. I know exactly how it writes. Like I know some nuances that chat GPT has, it's like my intern right now. I realize, okay, you have certain patterns and I actively avoid those patterns. So even when I read my other, for example, other client's work, I can immediately tell if something is AI or not. Based on the sentence structures. Yeah, based on the words that they use, based on sometimes the um, type of copy they come up with. If you don't prompt, well, you're gonna get super generic results for sure. So, for example, AI tends to repeat certain sentence structure. It's not this, it's that, you know, um, X then Y, but it repeats it multiple times in a single content piece. If you are not a writer, you may not even catch that. Yeah, yeah. But because I'm a copywriter, I can't catch these types. You know, sentence structures. So immediately when I see repetition, I know it's ai, um, when I see it, trying to use certain bigger, robust marketing words that you typically wouldn't use in any kind of copy. I know it's ai, when it sounds too, um, excitable sometimes. Mm-hmm. When it sounds overly enthusiastic, when it uses bad words. Literally. And also, you know, in a bigger sense, I also know it's ai, but you won't be able to tell if you are not an active user of ai. Firstly, you won't be able to tell if you're not conscious, uh, of all these quirks. And if you're a non-writer, you might just think, oh, I think it sounds pretty good, right? Uh, and that could be the kind of thought process for most people. But the problem is as more AI content is being generated, I am very sure that a lot more people. We'll be able to spot these patterns and trends and they'll be like, Hmm, this sounds pretty familiar. And that's when you're gonna be, you know, called out for using just very pure AI content without that human refinement.

Thibault Garcia: 21:54

But don't you think that like, giving it a very good set of rules will allow you to avoid that?'cause I feel like for me, when we write using, uh, ai, again, like I said, on on Cloud and all that stuff, we give it. We have a PDF that pretty much AI knows everything about my professional career, so you can refer to that. We have a PDF that contains 40 plus different type of hooks. We have, you know, all this kind of knowledge base that we give ai and we also give it rules like never use a double dash speak using, uh, fifth grade reading level. Don't use buzz words, don't use jargon, don't use complicated words. Just speak like right as you would speak, all this type of stuff. Don't you think that if we. You like with ai, you'd get to a point where you're able to prompt it so good that actually the output is unnoticeable. That it's actually was that it actually was reading with, uh, with ai.

Audrey Chia: 22:35

Yeah, definitely. So like what you see, right. The. Secret is in the prompt. Yeah. In the questions you give it, in the context you give it. So if you understand what AI is doing wrong that you don't like, then like what you say, putting it together in a document, saving it in chat, GT's memory, for example. These will help AI in that process of creating better quality content. Like one other thing that I love about chat GPT is that, um, it now has the memory feature. Yeah. So it's really starting to recall the way you write what you sound like, what you, you know. The kind of patterns and nuances that you like. So I have two different, uh, chat GPTs. One for a client, which belongs to the client's office. Smart. And one for myself. Right. So it

Thibault Garcia: 23:12

remembers the client's style as well. Yes.

Audrey Chia: 23:14

So it sounds. Completely different. Same prompt, completely different output. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because it's starting to understand what I need it to sound like, you know, different on different platforms. So that's also something you can leverage. And I know that my own personal, uh, chat GPT is super powerful. I will not trade it for anything else in the world because there's so much rich context about me, what I do and how I write.

Thibault Garcia: 23:34

And I think it compounds as well. The more you do, the more it understands what you do. Yes. And. Feedback to them be like, Hey, by the way, in the last 20 posts we did, these two did really well. Yes. Can you try and analyze why? Yes. And repeat and focus on those patterns and everything that, that's cool. Yeah. Um, and, and I think changing a little, I mean, we've been talking about AI a lot. I wanna talk about content strategy a bit more. Mm-hmm. What? What does, like if you sit down with a new client that you just signed and you have your onboarding code, I don't know whatever process you use, but when you have that first meeting with client where you're trying to pan out their strategy. Yes. What does that look like? What do you try to understand from the clients and what do you need from the client in order to kinda craft that content strategy?

Audrey Chia: 24:06

Yes. I love content strategies, like my bread and butter. I wake up getting excited because to me it's like. Solving a puzzle, you know, you've gotta have everything in place and then you solve it for them. The main problem that I find most founders face is they want to say everything and they're not seeing one thing, and because of that, they lose their audience because of that. They don't stand out in a crowded marketplace.

Thibault Garcia: 24:25

Yeah.

Audrey Chia: 24:25

And they lose. sight of, that communication, uh, with their audience, right? And then there is a disconnect. But once you figure out your strategic positioning, that's the thing I like to start off with, even before building your content strategy, understanding your value proposition. What makes you unique? What are your key selling points, your target audience, pain points, how to speak to them. And you can see it's a very rigorous process, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But once you nail that strategic positioning kit, then when you build your content pillars, your LinkedIn strategy, it's all based on, on that, the positioning. A lot of the other, um, kind of clients that I've seen, they jump straight to getting, you know, content out there, but they don't have a system and they don't have. And understanding of how they are different in the marketplace. So here's an example, right? If you have an fp and a software and you are building a sales tool on your company's page, of course you can talk about fp and a, right? But. As an individual, are you gonna be talking about your software every single day? Or will people enjoy your content if you're talking about your company all the time? Mm. Maybe not. Right? But if you are a CFO, you could talk about, you know, CFO related insights, things that could add value to your target audience. Um, broaden that scope, right? But it needs to start with what is that strategic positioning for your company. Mm-hmm. And what is that strategic positioning for yourself?

Thibault Garcia: 25:37

Yeah.

Audrey Chia: 25:37

So after we define that. Then we can start building out what is your content pillar? What does the structure and the format look like? Only after you define, of course. Yeah.'cause everything

Thibault Garcia: 25:46

trickled on from that, right? Yes. All that positioning and everything.

Audrey Chia: 25:49

Yes. And I think this is a mistake that I've seen from this Nick, not just for LinkedIn, but on. So many different platforms, your landing pages, your ads, your emails, they are not specific enough because you haven't nailed your positioning. Yeah. And that's something that I feel very strongly for. And I've seen clients who, once they nail their positioning, get a 20 to percent, uh, 20 to 30% increase in click-through rates for sure. Um, 5 to 10 times increase in ROAs just by nailing this 1 billion, well, it needs to be clear,

Thibault Garcia: 26:13

right? If it's not clear to someone that, ah. Within your business and, and trying to understand your business, how would it be clear to a cold audience that's never heard about your business before? Yes. Yes. And it's, it's funny you mentioning this'cause we follow the exact same kinda. Rigorous process when you're on onboard client, because the copywriting we do in the email side of thing and the, the, the LinkedIn DM outreach side of things is based on the same kinda, um, um, data, right? So we look at like what is that company's USP, what pain points do they solve? Who is their ICPs? What pain points do they have for each different ICP segments? What their value proposition like, pretty much, uh, all of these type of things.'cause you can't build. Anything without having this s nail down nailed out in the first place.

Audrey Chia: 26:48

Yes. It's the foundation to build your house.

Thibault Garcia: 26:51

Yeah, definitely. And so then when you, when once you have that and you start creating the content pillar and everything, how do you choose what type of content to go with first? Like, do you first do like. Top of funnel content or tofu as they call it, for like two, three months with some middle funnel?

Audrey Chia: 27:06

Yeah. Or like

Thibault Garcia: 27:07

what does that look like?

Audrey Chia: 27:08

Yeah. So for maybe listeners who are not as familiar with the marketing funnel, uh, there is the top of funnel content where you are just. Bringing people in, right? Yeah. And that's for the awareness and visibility piece. Then you have the mid of final content where it's about education and awareness, and then bottom of final content where you have client case studies for conversion. Most people like to go straight to the bottom of funnel and they're like, look at this case study, study, case study. We did this and

Thibault Garcia: 27:29

that, actually. But

Audrey Chia: 27:30

the problem is if nobody is following you, uh, following your content, nobody's gonna see that case study. So unless you start bringing people in, they're not going to see that. So I highly recommend for clients to look at building their top of funnel first, maybe during the first three to six months. Oh, wow. Okay. So

Thibault Garcia: 27:44

longer than what I would've thought.

Audrey Chia: 27:45

Yes. So this allows you to really build up that numbers, uh, that although they are vanity matrix, it helps in signaling authority. Right. So, of course you can do top of funnel content, but you can also still do personalized outreach while building that. But what you wanna do is to really start the engine. Mm-hmm. Right? Without the engine. If you're only gonna be pitching mid the bottom of funnel, yeah. Start to work, you won't see anything. However, you need to be aware that top of funnel content. Rarely gets you the right prospects. Mm-hmm. So here's an example. When I first started my LinkedIn journey from zero to 10 k, I focused a lot on the top of funnel content intentionally.'cause I wanted to build credibility. Yeah, of course. Super quickly. So I posted things like, here are the top 10 AI copywriting tools. At that time, AI was new. Copywriting was, you know, something people were trying to use AI for. So those types of posts did really well. However, do you think that someone who sees that post will want to work with me? Yeah, I know. Probably not, right? Yeah. But I'm bringing traffic in which I can eventually nurture because some part of them would be maybe founders, CMOs who eventually want to work with me, right? But if I don't build that top of funnel and I straight away go to, here's my copywriting services, um. Nobody's gonna care. For sure, for

Thibault Garcia: 28:49

sure.

Audrey Chia: 28:49

So, so think of it as a funnel, and if you are new to LinkedIn, start building your capacity on the top and then slowly nurture them.

Thibault Garcia: 28:56

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I, I was telling, again, someone yesterday, and I, I, I think that when you do things on LinkedIn, A you want to lead with value. Yes. It's very important. And a lot of people will say, oh yeah, but if you give too much, why don't they just take that and just do it themself? Then great. Then that probably means that they weren't going to be a client of, of yours in the first place, right? Yes. And I think the way we are doing it a lot is not a lot'cause we don't do too many lead magnets and we'll talk about them in a bit, but we try to have guide. Mm-hmm. That pretty much explains everything we do. Mm. And I give that to people for free because I'm like, if you want to do it in house, go and do it in-house. Right. Like this, we we're not building rockets. So you can, you can go and do that yourself, but. What actually ends up happening is people take it, they read through it and they're like, either they'll give it to their team and the team's gonna come back to them in a month and be like, well actually it's a bit more complicated than I thought and we're probably gonna have to pay$2,000 of tech, uh, tech stack tools. Uh, and I'm not even sure I'm gonna be able to get this correctly. Yes. Or is gonna even look at it, the founder and be like, oh, actually that's much more complicated than I thought. Let me hire these guys instead. Yes. Right. And that's why actually building and writing content that is valuable and or having resources that are valuable. That aren't written like with AI and that I fluff that are actually of value to people you're sending them to is the key to getting you those kind of leads later on that will come back your way.

Audrey Chia: 30:06

And I think, I think, um, one thing I'd like to add is Alex from my Z, right? He also gives so much value, gives away free value all the time. And he said this. I can give away this much value, but most people are lazy.

Thibault Garcia: 30:18

That's true.

Audrey Chia: 30:18

And then they come back to you because they, they don't wanna be the one working through all the a hundred steps. Yeah, that's very true. And it showcases your expertise and also gets you that good will for the next steps.

Thibault Garcia: 30:27

Yeah. No, for sure. And you, you talked about, um, vanity metrics earlier. It's, it's funny you're mentioning this,'cause in my very early stages of richly, I had a guy that literally said to me, and I'll never forget this on a call, he's like, oh yeah, but you know, my team and I, we looked at your content and um, you have 2000 followers. I was like, yeah, yeah, it is. Like, but on average you get like 10 to 15 likes per post. To me, it looks fake. It doesn't look like, you know, uh, your, you, it looks like. It doesn't look genuine and real. And I was like, and I told him, and actually this really stuck with me. Yes. And I was like, well, likes don't pay the bills, first of all. And likes don't mean anything. Yeah. Because you can write, and, and I'm sure you know how to do it, you can write a post that'll get you a lot of likes. Mm. But again, does that mean that it is gonna get you a lot of leads and a lot of business revenue? Yes. That comes from that. No. And so, um, what do you think about, you know, when, when you talk with those clients. Going back to your offering when you are working with those CEOs and, and CFOs and all those companies. What is the main KPI that you're driving for them? Like what do they usually ask you? Is it like the amount of followers, the average engagement score they'll get proposed? Is it the amount of meanings they'll get from the content? What does that look like?

Audrey Chia: 31:33

Yeah, so of course everyone would say, what is the ROI from what, which we

Thibault Garcia: 31:36

can calculate as we discussed, right? Yes.

Audrey Chia: 31:38

But content is a long term game. So I think in terms of what I would prioritize, uh, impressions, I, I think that's very important because that's basically shows you how many people are seeing your content and coming to your profile. And of course, eventually you want to track people who are following you of the new followers that you get. How many are perhaps potential or qualified? These are things that you want to know, because even if I attract a lot of other freelancers, I can't serve them for sure. They're not my clients. Um, but I need to pivot so that I can bring in the right people. So for example, uh, and a tool like, like GPT and a prompt of how you can create content with chat, GPT. It will attract a lot of freelancers. Yeah. Who are also writers who are not my ICP, whereas something like Y or B2B ads aren't working, it's not gonna get as much engagement. Of course, impressions will drop, but it's gonna bring in the right people for me. Yeah, but you cannot look at each post as a single post. Right. Of course you can, you know, track the analytics for each post so you know what's performing better. But you need to look at content as a long term game in the, in like a three month period. You know, uh, what impressions have you seen? Have you seen a growth in following of the following? Are there qualified leads? And then you need to look at it in stages, right? Mm. The first three months, maybe not as much, and you might need to rely a lot more on outbound, whereas for the next three to six months, you should start seeing inbound if your content is doing well.

Thibault Garcia: 32:50

Mm.

Audrey Chia: 32:50

And it also depends on your industry and niche,

Thibault Garcia: 32:52

of course, right?

Audrey Chia: 32:53

So for example, if you're in a very niche space, um. You are less likely to go viral, you are less likely to get huge number of impressions, but that doesn't mean you're not building authority.

Thibault Garcia: 33:03

Yeah.

Audrey Chia: 33:03

So having all these matrix in place, tracking different um, terms, but also being conscious that you need to look at it as a whole, uh, matters a lot in the longer term content game.

Thibault Garcia: 33:13

Hmm. So it's a lot about impressions and looking at impressions throughout those period of time. Like the first three months, the next three to six months and everything, right?

Audrey Chia: 33:20

Yes. Impressions, followers. Okay. Engagement. Not as much because people who engage with your content. Yeah, because,

Thibault Garcia: 33:25

and you can do, you can do engagement farming if you really wanted to gamify the, the whole thing, right? Yes. And they

Audrey Chia: 33:28

aren't your eyes. Most people who engage your, your content will not be your ICP.

Thibault Garcia: 33:32

It, it is funny you're talking about this'cause I, um, it's completely off topic, but I had dinner with friends. Uh, two, three months ago in a, in Hong Kong. And, and they were like, oh, your content's amazing. I was like, great. I was like, but I don't think I remember you liking it. Oh yeah. And I was like, I was like, no, they're very close friends. I like, no offense to anything, but can you explain to me why? And they work in very big corporate company, like very well-known companies. And I was like, well, it's not really something I would like, or I was like, interesting as, but I think,'cause again, LinkedIn, like you said at the very beginning of our chat is like you have all your colleagues and your boss and everything. Some people don't even like anything on LinkedIn'cause they don't want other people to see that they've liked stuff.'cause it seems like, what are you even doing on LinkedIn? Are you like slacking? Are you looking for another job? Yes. And or why are you liking this? It's really unrelated to what we do as a business. Right. Yeah. So it's It's a bit of an interesting one.

Audrey Chia: 34:17

Yeah. And I would tell you this, a lot of founders. Don't engage with any kind of content. Yeah. They prefer to consume it silently, um, or just follow your content once in a bit. Um, but they don't usually engage. Yeah. So these are things that you have to take note of. Um, so engagement not that much because you're looking for a community of supporters. Yeah. But I think impressions and then tracking followers plus people who viewed your profile, these three things are things that I will look out for,

Thibault Garcia: 34:40

for sure, for sure. And you, you mentioned founders not engaging and we were talking about attribution earlier. It. That's the thing with content, right? It's so hard for you to know what's driving you business, what's driving you leads and everything. Like we signed a clients three weeks ago and that guy read our content, send it to his team, send a link to his team.'cause I asked his ceo, I was like, how did you get my content? Oh, my CEO sent it to me. I was like, okay. And then he contacted me and then we had a chat with him and then we had a chat with the CEO. Oh. It's like you'll never be able to know. And the buying, the buying decision journey is like so different from everyone. Right? Someone might see it Google you, someone might see it forward to someone like it is just all over the place. Or really, like you said, you want to focus on the long term game. Yes. Um, and just. Keep on repetition. Yeah. Um, and, and so on, on that note, you talked about three months of content and things like this. Do you schedule your content and if so, like how long, like do you batch? Can I create and batch schedule or how do you go about that?

Audrey Chia: 35:34

Yeah, I think it's up to you. Um. What works best for you, but I believe in at least like what I said, getting that content calendar and your content pillar sorted. So you never run out of ideas. The last thing you wanna do is to be stressed on the day itself. I have nothing to pause. What should I talk about? And then your mind goes blank. There is not what you wanna do. So, um, ideally about creating your content a bit earlier on usually helps people because they have a dedicated time and space to think about content. What I also like to do is to learn from top performers. Whether it's on LinkedIn, on YouTube, or other platforms, you can figure out what are some trending topics, topics that people care about in different spaces similar to yours. And then you use that as inspiration. Don't copy exactly what they post. Of course, yeah. Add your own takeaway, your own perspective, your own case studies and your own points. Right? But use them as a base to build off. So I have a resource inspiration bank where I save. Lots of resources that I can always go back to making sure that they all align with my content calendar and content pillars. Then I also, for example, about create, uh, content for one week in advance.

Thibault Garcia: 36:33

Okay.

Audrey Chia: 36:33

Yeah. So at least you get a bit of breathing space and time to think, but also you don't ever run out of no ideas. You know, just you need to have, you need to be prepared for funding. Yeah. No, no, for sure. Yes.

Thibault Garcia: 36:42

And, and in terms of, of content. Type that you schedule. I mean you, I see your carousels, Oliver, you've done some cheat sheets before. Is there a specific content? And I mean, the Argos changed a lot lately. I think three, four months ago people were doing video and getting a million impression.'cause LinkedIn was pushing for video. Now it's kind of died down a bit. Is there any specific content type you focus on or you think has better value than others, or you do a bit of a mix similar to how you'd plan your top funnel, middle funnel, bottom funnel. You also spread across, you know, image carousels and, and, uh, videos.

Audrey Chia: 37:11

Yeah, so I test everything, um, which is why I would know if something works better than others. The carousel format for me still works the best. Uh, it gets me at least five times more impressions than a single image post. I think it's because LinkedIn sees it as something of value and people could also then perceive it as something of value. So that organically boasts the contents performance app. So if I have time, I'm always building carousels. Um, I think that is the. Fastest way to grow, but I also layer it with other types of posts. Video posts, for example, don't get me as many impressions. Mm-hmm. However, they build authority, authenticity, and builds that personal touch. Yes. Right. So if you see me talking online. You immediately get that sense, which, which I do a lot, right? Who am I, what I feel like, um, is this someone I want to potentially work with? And that helps in building that trust factor for sure. And also like having conversations like this allows you to then reach out to a different audience. You can reach out to mine, I'll reach out to yours. And it also increases your reach. So you need to have a mix of different content types. But for different purposes. Mm-hmm. You need to be very specific in why you chose that content type and what's the purpose of it.

Thibault Garcia: 38:12

A hundred percent. And, and I think to your point on video, I, I heard somewhere a while back is when people watch your video content, which is why I think video content is so important. And unlike you, I try to do IG and YouTube. I don't think it's gonna have a very high ride for now, but I just wanna have it maybe running in the background and see if I can grow it in the future. Um, when people watch your video content. When they then get on a call with you, they're like, oh, I know that person. I know Audrey. I've seen her content. You know how she speaks, you know how she stands, you know how she, the mimics she has and the way she moves and it almost feels like I know you, I mean, when I met you earlier for the first time, I felt like I knew already.'cause I had seen your contents and I think that's one thing that you really can get through images. Cheat sheets and, and carousels and all that stuff. And that's why having video is very important. Yeah. Uh, but I think on the flip side of that, which is probably my next question, uh, on the flip side of that, I hear, and I see a lot of founders and see like, oh yeah, but I, I'm not so comfortable behind camera. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to put my face out there and everything. So do you. For your client, do you recommend them to do video as well or do you only help them do like image cheat sheets and carousels?

Audrey Chia: 39:07

I think the most important thing is consistency, right? Yeah. So if, let's say you can't keep up with this type of content, even if we do it for one month, um, and it. Of course you could try to repurpose that, you know, one time clip for multiple use cases. Yeah. That is one way, if you have a one time good setup, like this one. Yeah. And then we can repurpose the clip for a longer term. That is one option, but if the founders themselves are not organically open to it mm-hmm. Or they don't want to do so, and they don't prioritize it. That is a problem, right? Because they're not gonna take time off their busy schedule when they're firefighting 10 million things to just build content if they don't believe in the long-term. ROI of it. So we need to align your, you know, contents interests, but also with the founder's priority. And I rather them be more, uh, active posting a single image post, then putting out one video and disappearing from the next. Exactly. Yeah. You

Thibault Garcia: 39:50

wanna be consistent on that. And I think it's a matter of, but, but also to them, what really matters is to see that engagement and stuff. So they might be like. Lately video doesn't perform as well, so might be like, oh, why am I even doing video? I feeling comfortable with it in the first place. And I think on, on the, on engagement, we found something at Richie. Is that the way the LinkedIn Argo kinda works and the, the main three things that are going to be helping LinkedIn push your contents to, to the audience and to more people on LinkedIn? Number one is the hook. Yes. Are people passing through? Are they actually reading it and clicking on see more? That's one factor. The second factor, and to a bit of a contrary belief is what, what we call dwell time. How much spend, are people actually reading your stuff? Are they just hook, clicking, scrolling, liking? That's not gonna do anything.'cause LinkedIn probably knows you're part of an engagement part or something like this. It's like actually reading the content, going back up and forth. And then the third point is engaging. Um, we've seen that and there's a bit of of research around that that typically save. And sending, uh, would be the main like two factors to show that, you know, a post is doing really well on engagement side of thing, but have you found anything else apart from the hook, the dwell time and the engagements to be like a big driver behind the variety, uh, the engagement of a, of a post on LinkedIn? Yeah,

Audrey Chia: 40:59

I think the value as well. Right. Okay. Uh, of course, at the end of the day, how much value you give. So we can talk about this in the next kind of question, right? Yeah. I talk about lead gen. Um, so sometimes if you really wanna push your post up, uh, in a, and. Manufacture virality, doing giveaways. Not every day, but once in a bit. Yeah. Uh, can also help because when you are giving something off and you have to quote the actual value of the resource, for example, you spend$10,000, uh, dollars on it, or you spend X number of hours on it, then that resource has value. And when there's perceived value, people are gonna comment to. Get it. So, um, an example that I have top of mind is Canon, who is the founder of Icon, uh, an AI ad maker. Right? What they did during their launch polls was they included a call to action. I have a resource bank of X number of ads that have generated X million in revenue for these brands. Knows that. Did you want it? Yeah. Yeah. Notice that these ads are not his, these ads, uh, belong to other brands. But he tagged a value to it, and then he asked people to comment and gave them a timeframe. You have, uh, scarcity, you have value, and you have a call to action or tag to one thing. So that in the end, um, helped him to manufacture and engineer that success for that launch post, which I think was a very smart strategy. No,

Thibault Garcia: 42:09

for sure. We, we do it a little bit differently. I mean, to go back to your point to when I mentioned those three things, the hook, the, and the engagement. Of course it comes. With a post that's valuable.'cause even if you have those three, but you have a post that's not valuable. No one's gonna like it. Uh, but going back to your kind of lead magnet point, it, it was probably gonna be my next question actually. We, we do this sometime, we try to do it maybe like once a quarter. Mm-hmm. Maybe trying to increase it to maybe twice a quarter. Um, actually building resources and guides and valuable. Things we can share to the audience for free and then write content around that. That's probably the two most successful posts I've ever written on LinkedIn. Where these type of posts, what's your take on in magnets?

Audrey Chia: 42:43

I think they are great, but not used regularly. Yeah. Yeah. I have seen, um, course I follow different creators and I always observe their strategies and I like to learn, right. So yeah. So I'm like, hmm, does this work? So I followed a creator who was doing lead magnet. Uh, every day for a period of time. Yeah. Um, it did perform well for a period of time, and after the algorithm changed or after I guess there was fatigue, then of course these posts didn't perform as well. And the interesting thing is because people were connecting with that creator for the lead magnet, you get many un qualifi. Yeah. Prospects are on your platform, which means that the next time you actually put out a very valuable bottom and meet of funnel type post, it's not

Thibault Garcia: 43:21

relevant to these guys.

Audrey Chia: 43:22

Yes. You're gonna see an immediate deep in the engagement, right? Yeah. So again, deep magnets are top of funnel type posts. You can use them once in a while, but I don't recommend you posting it every single day. Yeah. Um, because. You're not gonna be bringing in the right people, but what are your thoughts on this? No,

Thibault Garcia: 43:36

it's, it's, it is, I agree a hundred percent. I, I'll always tell people, it's like if you do lead magnets a, I think the most important thing is, what I see a lot of people do is they build lead magnet using charge GPT, and it's like a very crap lead magnet I've seen. And I'm like, if someone receives that, if I clicked on it and say, yes, comment and connect, and you send me this, which has happened before in the past, I was like, oh, oh, let's see. Let's see what this is about. And I get it. I'm like, oh man, that's what he's saying to people. I'm never engaging with that guy ever again, like unfollow and all that stuff. So I think you only have one shot. You know, people's attention span is, is short and you only have one shot at building trust with people. So my first, my first point is, but you've mentioned that earlier, is value. Yes. When you build it in my net, when I truly, my, I did, I generally spent eight to nine hours doing them, adding, create these, adding give, adding video, adding my own take on it, reworking on the structure. So that's the first thing is you really wanna build something that's valuable to your audience. And, and to your point about like being tough on all, I agree. But what I try to typically do is I'll think about. What are my ICP struggling with? So I can have something that's top funnel, but still should kinda be something that's almost broad enough to include all of my ICPs